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	<title>Comments on: Automatic DB_FILE_MULTIBLOCK_READ_COUNT</title>
	<atom:link href="http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/</link>
	<description>Oracle Database Performance And Scalability Blog</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Ido</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>Ido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 05:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-246</guid>
		<description>Hey, you can all refer to my website www.orainsights.com to see some new insights about db_file_multiblock_read_count and 11g

Ido</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, you can all refer to my website <a href="http://www.orainsights.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.orainsights.com</a> to see some new insights about db_file_multiblock_read_count and 11g</p>
<p>Ido</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Rahn</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Rahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-245</guid>
		<description>@Doug

I am not sure if there has been.  I agree that there have been some advances in hardware over the years and it may be of value to revisit it.  If I find anything out, I&#039;ll post it here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Doug</p>
<p>I am not sure if there has been.  I agree that there have been some advances in hardware over the years and it may be of value to revisit it.  If I find anything out, I&#8217;ll post it here.</p>
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		<title>By: doug rady</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>doug rady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-237</guid>
		<description>Greg,

Has any recent experimentation been done with supporting &gt;1MB for MBRC?
Many moons ago, on a now dead &amp; buried Oracle port, we raised the MBRC limit to 4MB and saw real benefit for OLAP/DSS/DW work that hoovered up large chunks of data. Given the advances in the h/w since then, this might be worth revisiting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>Has any recent experimentation been done with supporting &gt;1MB for MBRC?<br />
Many moons ago, on a now dead &amp; buried Oracle port, we raised the MBRC limit to 4MB and saw real benefit for OLAP/DSS/DW work that hoovered up large chunks of data. Given the advances in the h/w since then, this might be worth revisiting.</p>
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		<title>By: joel garry</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>joel garry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-238</guid>
		<description>With respect to OLTP db&#039;s running ERP or MRP type apps, I can say I&#039;ve observed:

They aren&#039;t completely OLTP, there&#039;s some amount of batching.

Some FTS (and Index FFS) happen due to purposeful trade-offs on whether an index is there.  Some issues also happen by accident or functional creep.

So, your test is a little bit applicable to OLTP too, and thank you for it, and thanks to Oracle for making the best of odd situations by default (absent bugs, of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect to OLTP db&#8217;s running ERP or MRP type apps, I can say I&#8217;ve observed:</p>
<p>They aren&#8217;t completely OLTP, there&#8217;s some amount of batching.</p>
<p>Some FTS (and Index FFS) happen due to purposeful trade-offs on whether an index is there.  Some issues also happen by accident or functional creep.</p>
<p>So, your test is a little bit applicable to OLTP too, and thank you for it, and thanks to Oracle for making the best of odd situations by default (absent bugs, of course).</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Rahn</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Rahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-236</guid>
		<description>@Donald K. Burleson

&gt;&gt; It would be interesting to observe the impact of the back-end RAID (or ASM stripe size) on this test.

What would be interesting about it?
What metrics would you want to observe?
What would you expect to happen?

I don&#039;t think it is any secret that when reading a significant amount of data (e.g FTS) that larger I/Os are more efficient.  MBRC exists for this exact reason.  Unfortunately there are many layers that I/Os can be fragmented before the I/O actually gets to the physical disk.  Sometimes they are reassembled at the storage level, but not always.  This doesn&#039;t present a problem in itself per se, but it does lower the efficiency of each physical disk.  Some storage also uses read-ahead/prefetch algorithms to accelerate such scans.

&gt;&gt; let’s not forget that this only applies to full-scan reads

I don&#039;t think anyone is forgetting.  I clearly stated this experiment was run with 100% physical I/O and a FTS.  I would hope that neither of these would be present in an OLTP database.  This is most applicable to a DSS workload (partition scans) where large reads are common.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Donald K. Burleson</p>
<p>>> It would be interesting to observe the impact of the back-end RAID (or ASM stripe size) on this test.</p>
<p>What would be interesting about it?<br />
What metrics would you want to observe?<br />
What would you expect to happen?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it is any secret that when reading a significant amount of data (e.g FTS) that larger I/Os are more efficient.  MBRC exists for this exact reason.  Unfortunately there are many layers that I/Os can be fragmented before the I/O actually gets to the physical disk.  Sometimes they are reassembled at the storage level, but not always.  This doesn&#8217;t present a problem in itself per se, but it does lower the efficiency of each physical disk.  Some storage also uses read-ahead/prefetch algorithms to accelerate such scans.</p>
<p>>> let’s not forget that this only applies to full-scan reads</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone is forgetting.  I clearly stated this experiment was run with 100% physical I/O and a FTS.  I would hope that neither of these would be present in an OLTP database.  This is most applicable to a DSS workload (partition scans) where large reads are common.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald K. Burleson</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-235</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald K. Burleson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-235</guid>
		<description>Hi Greg,

&gt;&gt; the Oracle database can decide the optimal MBRC no matter what the blocksize, demonstrating there is no advantage to a larger (or even smaller) blocksize in this case.

It would be interesting to observe the impact of the back-end RAID (or ASM stripe size) on this test.

Also, let&#039;s not forget that this only applies to full-scan reads, and MBRC will not help many OLTP systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; the Oracle database can decide the optimal MBRC no matter what the blocksize, demonstrating there is no advantage to a larger (or even smaller) blocksize in this case.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to observe the impact of the back-end RAID (or ASM stripe size) on this test.</p>
<p>Also, let&#8217;s not forget that this only applies to full-scan reads, and MBRC will not help many OLTP systems.</p>
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		<title>By: Vyacheslav Rasskazov</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>Vyacheslav Rasskazov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-244</guid>
		<description>Greg, Vlad,
Thank you for clarification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, Vlad,<br />
Thank you for clarification.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Rahn</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Rahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-243</guid>
		<description>Vyacheslav-

My test is valid as pointed out by Vlad: the test is not about direct vs. cached reads.  I specifically mention in my test case that I am forcing 100% physical reads.  This is by intent.  The point of this experiment is that it is not the block size that matters, rather the I/O size.  You can do the experiment in 10g and not use direct reads, and the same observations can be made.  Now, since 11g did introduce the serial direct read, the results should not be compared between versions, but the same behavior can still be observed.  It just falls under a different event name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vyacheslav-</p>
<p>My test is valid as pointed out by Vlad: the test is not about direct vs. cached reads.  I specifically mention in my test case that I am forcing 100% physical reads.  This is by intent.  The point of this experiment is that it is not the block size that matters, rather the I/O size.  You can do the experiment in 10g and not use direct reads, and the same observations can be made.  Now, since 11g did introduce the serial direct read, the results should not be compared between versions, but the same behavior can still be observed.  It just falls under a different event name.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Rahn</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Rahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-242</guid>
		<description>Peter-

If you set &lt;code&gt;db_file_multiblock_read_count=0&lt;/code&gt; and hit the bug, what normally would be a multi-block read (FTS/FFS) will be 1 block reads and thus a &quot;db file sequential read&quot;.  In this case one will never see a &quot;db file scatter read&quot; because only 1 block is ever read.  Give it a try and I think you will see what I mean.  Maybe I was unclear by using 1 block and multi-block read in relation to each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter-</p>
<p>If you set <code>db_file_multiblock_read_count=0</code> and hit the bug, what normally would be a multi-block read (FTS/FFS) will be 1 block reads and thus a &#8220;db file sequential read&#8221;.  In this case one will never see a &#8220;db file scatter read&#8221; because only 1 block is ever read.  Give it a try and I think you will see what I mean.  Maybe I was unclear by using 1 block and multi-block read in relation to each other.</p>
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		<title>By: vlad</title>
		<link>http://structureddata.org/2008/08/14/automatic-db_file_multiblock_read_count/comment-page-1/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>vlad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 04:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://structureddata.org/?p=76#comment-234</guid>
		<description>Size of direct reads is not driven by _db_file_direct_io_count but db_file_multiblock_read_count (mbrc), just like buffer cache reads.
However mbrc is not necessarily automatically set to a value leading to 1MB ios. It is set to  min(_max_io_size , buffers/sessions). This can lead to strange values (meaning not a power of 2) so this is something to monitor. Also it indicates that with a fixed buffer cache size, there is more &quot;chance&quot; to have a smaller value for mbrc with a bigger default block size (as we have less buffers with a bigger block size).
I think Greg&#039;s experiment is not about the type of read (direct/cached) but about the impact of various block sizes on scan performance when using a fixed io size.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Size of direct reads is not driven by _db_file_direct_io_count but db_file_multiblock_read_count (mbrc), just like buffer cache reads.<br />
However mbrc is not necessarily automatically set to a value leading to 1MB ios. It is set to  min(_max_io_size , buffers/sessions). This can lead to strange values (meaning not a power of 2) so this is something to monitor. Also it indicates that with a fixed buffer cache size, there is more &#8220;chance&#8221; to have a smaller value for mbrc with a bigger default block size (as we have less buffers with a bigger block size).<br />
I think Greg&#8217;s experiment is not about the type of read (direct/cached) but about the impact of various block sizes on scan performance when using a fixed io size.</p>
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